This post was originally published on Linked In by Nicolas Reid. It is republished here with permission.
Auckland is now just a year or so away from having the keystone of its urban rail network complete. As I wrote about here, the City Rail Link will be a literal game changer for public transport in the city buy making train trips faster and more frequent, by boosting capacity and by running trains from one side of the city to the other.
However, I wonder if the plans for how those trains will be run are actually the best they could be?
How to show the new rail network on a map?
I came across a twitter discussion on the difficulties the rapid transit map designer was having to represent the rail lines when the CRL is open. In simple terms, the current plan is to run the Western Line through the CRL tunnel and out to the Eastern Line, and vice versa, while the Southern Line will pass through the city and loop back on itself to and from Otahuhu.
The designer’s problem was how to represent the red southern line doubling back on a map. Apparently, they’re trying a few options for showing the same service pattern, which you can see in their pictures which I’ve copied below.
- two different lines of different colours (red and purple), where the colours change at Waitemata station,
- two lines of different shades of red that blend into each other across the CRL,
- a continuous red line that doubles up as two parallel lines between Newmarket and Otahuhu,
- a single line with a loop that merges back into itself at Newmarket.
There isn’t really a perfect solution here, each of these creates problems for a person looking at the map and trying to see where the lines go to and from. The option with two different lines with different colours, has a big flaw because it tells the map reader that those lines end at Waitemata station, when in fact they run through. Someone getting on the purple line wouldn’t know that their train actually takes them through to Waihorotiu and beyond. The option with blending shades of red has a similar, but less pronounced, problem. It still presents either end of the service as a different line. The third option of the single line merging onto itself has the opposite problem, and arguably more confusing. It has no information on which end of the red line goes where. You can’t tell, for example, that the trains running out of town via Parnell only go as far as Otahuhu, while the ones running out via Grafton go all the way south.
In my opinion the lesser evil of these is the last option, showing the red line as a single service that doubles back upon itself in a double line. This at least presents the single service pattern correctly, and shows where the ends of the line actually run and how far they go. However, it’s still not great for a user at those double up stations, where you’d have the same T2 Red Line coming through each station going to four different directions or destinations. That is confusing!
So this begs the question, is this an issue to be solved with graphic design, or does the difficulty lie with the network itself?
Is a loop the best way to run the network?
Working in network design I’ve found that if a network is difficult to put down on paper, it’s also difficult to use in real life. If a designer struggles to show where the trains go on a simplified diagram, how are the users supposed to find out how to get where they want to go?
It’s my view that having the southern line train services loop back onto themselves is not the best way to run trains through the CRL. Part of the value of the CRL is having through-routed trains, rather than stopping at the terminus downtown they carry on to other stations to let you access a wider range of destinations. With the plans above you can see this with the green east-west line, for sure, but you don’t get it with the red southern line.
The problem there is that if you loop a line back onto itself, you literally running the service back through the stations where the train has just been. So, the first issue of loops is the confusion outlined above, knowing which way round the loop this version of the red line is going and whether it stops up here or down there. The second issue is that people don’t really want to travel in circles, they are by nature indirect and the opposite of the fastest way between two points. So a full loop is almost useless to getting to stations the wrong way around the circle. If you are at Newmarket and trying to get to the next station at Parnell, you’ll end up waiting for the trains that go directly there, even if half of the trains on the line go there around the full loop via Grafton, the CRL stations and downtown.
The third issue is you don’t actually get any through routing. If you come in on a train that runs through the stations from Otahuhu to Newmarket, there is literally zero benefit for passengers to continue that train back to the same stations from Newmarket to Otahuhu. It just means the same train on the same line stopping at the same stations a second time. This means that the southern line doesn’t benefit from that through routing benefit.
There are some other potential issues with the southern line loop plan, particularly around the passenger loadings and capacity. If you consider the line between Otahuhu and the city centre stations. That network means half of the red line trains will have come from Papakura and Pukekohe, stopping at twelve southern stations before Otahuhu and presumably being quite full. The other half of the trains will be starting at Otahuhu as their first station, and start completely empty.
Now in a basic transport model this will look great, the demand will be averaged across the trains and will look nice and even north of Otahuhu. But in reality, half the trains will be chockers, and half will be empty, with the real-life utilisation being lower than expected. Passengers would have to consider whether the cram onto the next train that comes along, or if they sit and wait for the next one hoping it will be free. In my experience, people default to the devil they know and will rather catch a crowded train in front of them that risk waiting for another one that may turn up later.
There is possibly a similar issue on the Eastern Line, I understand that the projected demand joining the train is expected to be high from Sylvia Park and Glen Innes, and very high at Panmure with thousands of patrons transferring off the eastern busway and Pakuranga buses. This may be a problem if the eastern line trains continue to start at Manukau and pick up at the stations from Puhinui to Otahuhu. They might already be too full when they arrive at Panmure.
There’s another way to frame that discussion. The plan is to consistently start a line at Otahuhu, with a while line’s worth of empty trains beginning their run to town there all day every day. So, wouldn’t it be better to send those empty trains straight to Sylvia Park and Panmure to pick up the big crowds with that capacity, than to send those empty trains to the comparatively less busy stations on the other line?
An alternate option
My suggestion is that Auckland tweaks the CRL network plan to remove the southern line double back loop, and instead run it to Otahuhu via the eastern stations. This effectively means swapping the Green Line to run via Parnell-Newmarket-Penrose on it’s way between Swanson and Manukau, so the Red Line can run via the eastern line after the CRL to its terminus at Otahuhu. This is shown below (this also shows the Onehunga branch as a shuttle line, which I have discussed before, but either a shuttle or the crosstown line still works).
What that means is that one end of the red line would start at Otahuhu and serve the eastern line before going through the CRL and out south to Pukekohe, and vice versa. The green line would still run a crosstown pattern, but via Parnell, Newmarket and Ellerslie, rather than via Orakei, GI and Panmure. For travelers from the west those are probably more useful destinations than the suburban east. That removes the loop and the double ups, and I expect would spread the demand better across individual trains.
This would be the same number of lines, same number of trains, same movement through the CRL and junctions, and same total capacity, but a different routing that probably works better for utilisation and loading, and it definitely results in a more legible network… and a clear and easy to read map.
So what do people think of this alternative routing, what would be the benefits or problems of running the network this way?
This makes so much sense
Seems like a genuinely great solution. What do we need to do to make it a reality?
BTW: these maps seem to put to rest a rumour that I’ve heard a couple of times now, that Western Line passengers travelling to KAH and TW would have to change trains at Mangawhau, with a journey across platforms. Can you confirm this is not correct and that they would instead change to the southern line at KAH for, say, the quickest journey to Newmarket?
Would it in fact be quicker to stay on the same train and travel through Waitamatā?
Ngā mihi
Sorry but what/where is TAH and TW?
My guess is they’re trying to talk about K Rd/Aotea/Britomart.
KAH Karanaga-A-Hape
TW Te Waihorotiu
I’d honestly prefer this as someone living near the western line.
They definitely wouldn’t make it that you have to transfer at Maungawhau to get to these two prime City/CRL stations. Key passenger flows would go through these from either west, south or east. Only from Onehunga or the crosstown line of some sort would you have to transfer.
Very interesting article and deserves a lot more analysis. Could AI solve this?
As a tangent. Here’s a game where you build track to move goods (& people) from supply to demand locations as efficiently as possible. If trains need to share track one stops to give way (think of Western line trains holding before Newmarket – not efficient!).
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2244470/Train_Valley_World/
A little bit of fun, if that’s your thing.
So in the final version of this plan, passengers from Eastern Line stations wishing to travel to the Airport will need to change at both Otahuhu and at Puhinui. Not likely to be a popular. Continuing the Eastern Line trains to Manukau as at present, and terminating the red line at Otahuhu seems more logical. For both Eastern and Southern Line stations there would then be direct trains to Puhinui. But that reintroduces the double red line on the map – which is hardly the world’s greatest problem!
Being one of the ppl ur describing, if all southbound trains stopped on the same platform at Ōtāhuhu and were scheduled 2-3 minutes apart, it wouldn’t rly be that much of a hassle, definitely worth of it meant the network as a whole worked better
But is it likely that through trains and terminating trains will us the same platform?
Surely not…. that would impede flow quite badly
i’m guessing that short-stopping trains would use Platform 3, the eastern bay platform, to terminate, whereas trains running to and from further south would use island platforms 1 & 2. So to transfer you’d need to use the station overbridge across the tracks
Agree new plan sounds better . Boarding at Otahuhu in the afternoon would be easier than in morning in the old plan
Good point re Airport (not so much for travellers but workers), Puhinui should ideally have had a 3rd platform to turn around services. Come to think of it, isn’t if future proofed for this?
Good thinking. I agree heartily with this point. “For travelers from the west those are probably more useful destinations than the suburban east.” Surely there is hop data analysis which could test this hypothesis.
would also be useful to see how many people from Manukau are travelling to Eastern Line stations e.g. Sylvia Park, and how many would travel to Southern Line stations e.g. Newmarket
If the officially proposed network is implemented, one interesting thing to watch might be whether there is patronage growth in the better crosstown trips that would be enabled.
For example, Morningside to Sylvia Park would go from about 1 hour on PT currently to around 30 minutes if you had a single east-west line (from some napkin maths). That would make the crosstown trip time start to approach door-to-door interpeak driving trip times.
In that example, operating using the other suggested network pattern – add a transfer in at Britomart and it’d be ~38 minutes on average (assuming a 15-minute off-peak frequency). It’s a big improvement either way and something to monitor post-CRL opening. Transfers only become trickier at night when the frequency drops to half-hourly and the average wait becomes 15 minutes.
It’s also interesting from GI/Panmure. Currently from Glen Innes, the 75 is timetabled to get to Newmarket in 20 minutes off-peak, and 34 minutes in the morning peak. Going around the CRL in the suggested red line, it would be about 26 minutes by my napkin math, so the bus is actually timetabled to beat the train outside of rush hour. Similar-ish time profiles for buses from Panmure.
Napkin math based on the travel time tables that were on the CRL website, which presumably included slow dwells.
Retaining the Western-Newmarket connection is great given the T4 to/from Ōnehunga will only be every 30 minutes, so if a passenger missed their T4 train to Newmarket they won’t need to wait a whole half hour for the next train (even if the trip will be longer)
Plus a single train from the Tāmaki area through to Newmarket would add some flexibility for passengers living out east, adding capacity on the 70/B4 and even the 75 between Tāmaki and Newmarket/CBD
So overall there would also be much more redundancy and help reliability of the network as a whole
Services between Onehunga and New Lynn or further west should be retained at least for school services to/from Grafton Station. Without these, half the station and platforms at Manugawhau would have no use (perhaps an indication that they should have been built on the lines between Grafton & K’Rd).
Agree that running loop services is not a good use of the network.
Seems all the official plans include using the CRL as a loop, despite the fact that since 2013 the message has been that the CRL is not a loop! Options that do not use the CRL as a loop are an improvement on options that do.
There will be enough slots for the Onehunga service to terminate at Maungawhau which would be an improvement for Onehunga users, and would provide more Maungawhau – Grafton – Newmarket services which will be less than ideal once the CRL opens.
The case for the as much as $billion it cost to change the southern CRL entrance from a flat junction to grade separated seemed underwhelming, and still does. The flat junction at the other end will work just fine for the foreseeable future.
From http://www.cityraillink.co.nz/city-rail-link-faq
“Is the CRL a rail loop?
“Think of it like the Waterview Tunnel which joined up Auckland’s motorways.
“This does the same with the rail lines. CRL will connect with the Western Line at a redeveloped Maungawhau Station and so open up the entire rail network.
“As the “link” name states, it’s a link to all the existing rail lines on the southern, eastern and western lines.”
trouble is that once the CRL gets used at its maximum capacity, it would be nigh impossible to rebuild a locked-in at grade Maungawhau junction as a grade separated one; at least not without excessive cost and probably destroying the station precinct and transit oriented development above the tunnels.
Missing out on Newton station (would the te reo name have been Te Urukaraka?) and the Inner West Interchange station that could’ve underpinned a Dominion Junction redevelopment is my bugbear with the final CRL design.
Any idea how much money that design change saved
Given that CRL costs have continued to rise regardless that argument feels rather moot; and if an extra few hundred million for two new stations unlocked uptown redevelopment and urban regeneration that recouped the costs…
Finally some-one picked up on this topic!
That is why we need to convince the government to build Southdown-Avondale with an another heavy rail line (either 5 km tunnelled Dominion RD or North Shore line) by 2035. Both lines in real need and it doesn’t particularly make sense what’s their doing with Britomart when CRL goes live, you’re going to have one platform vacant, not in use for any heavy rail lines. If construction was happening of more heavy rail lines right now we wouldn’t be in a housing crisis and public transport crisis!
Construction of ANY mode of mass transit – heavy rail, driverless light metro, light rail, BRT – would support transit oriented development. And if you branch heavy rail network too much, each branch will be of inconveniently low frequencies – below 10-15 minutes off peak – and won’t carry as many people as a single higher frequency light rail or metro would.
Light rail or metro can’t go inside Britomart. Also to the point, Light rail or metro ignores economical issues which is why the ALR(Auckland Light Rail) failed!
Once the CRL opens, 9 car trains will be operating, meaning no need to increase frequency during peak. However we do need to be seeing more Heavy rail lines in Auckland if we want to be better connected and improve our society.
… you really think that heavy rail would be cheaper than light rail? HAHAHA
you heavy rail cultists are delusional. people have no trouble walking outside of Waitemata station to transfer to buses or ferries. and once again you fail at recognizing that frequency = convenience as much as it equals capacity. 10 minute minimum off-peak frequencies must be the bare minimum for all rapid transit lines in Auckland, and sunshine you can’t accomplish that if you’re splitting off branches willy-nilly.
Kiwirail have said that A2S is only justifiable for freight purposes. Passenger services would be icing on the cake. The Mayor of course has a different view, but it won’t matter.
If rapid transit is what you want on that route as soon as possible, that’s probably going to be a busway and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, we could probably replace the Onehunga line if we routed it through there, with a service going sout to the Airport. And we do need to talk about the O’ Line….
Lot’s of people talking about their “bugbears” but mine is to do with Busways; the gap between Panmure and the Western Line/Southern Line going north….
“busway and there is nothing wrong with that.”
Hmm, Have you forgotten Auckland was in a bus driver crisis back in 2022 – not too long ago and took entire year to fix it! Possible for it to bounce back since bus driver are likely not being paid as much anymore sadly. Adding more buses to the network without more Heavy Rail isn’t an option. The whole idea is to displace a current ‘frequent’ bus service to Heavy rail to get it off road and stop it from being ‘frequent’ bus service being bottlenecked cause stuck with public vehicles.
dude is cherry picking like crazy. who’s to say that there mightn’t be a shortage of train drivers, or a strike, or a catastrophic rebuild of any new heavy rail lines?
“The whole idea is to displace a current ‘frequent’ bus service to Heavy rail to get it off road and stop it from being ‘frequent’ bus service being bottlenecked cause stuck with public vehicles.” or you could instate permanent bus lanes, or build a light rail line in a greentracked median. the latter especially is the long term solution for Dominion Rd and any busy route with frequent stops and a need for placemaking.
In reponse to KLK, the issue i have with busways is the width you end up as they are always next to the road. The panmure bus/rail station area has 4/5 lanes of road then a bus station one side, with a stopping bay for buses, followed by 2 more lanes of buses going through, then a stopping bay on the other side followed by the bus shelters.
The whole thing is close to 8 or 9 lanes in total like a houston highway.
That part of panmure is dead which is a shame as its right next to the rail station.
The same is happening in Pakuranga. The new pakuranga bus station area is just a series of roads about 9 or 10 lanes wide with dead areas in between.
Sometimes i think these designers are sadists.
I prefer all types of rail as it can move more in a narrower space so we dont end up losing the city just so we can drive through it.
I prefer rail too, but how long do you want to wait for RT on that A2S route? Kiwirail says up to 30yrs for HR.
Its just a politcal thing. If the mayor or political party suppprt it then it can happen tomorrow.
The key is to convince them of the benefits of thr asl to passengers rather than just being seen as a freight only thing.
…design, consenting, and construction time might have something to say about that.
Seems like that’s more an effect of car dependant thinking and “moar lanes” road engineering than being inherent to bus rapid transit. Street running light rail could fall foul to the same flaws despite its slightly narrower corridor and potential for green tracking.
Not really. The busway stations are around 4 lanes wide added to a basic 4 lane road around auckland, add in a few median strips between and any busway creates something akin to a houston highway. Panmure is a poor result. Of you look at the plans for pakuranga its the same. And the northern busway is the same.
You’re really being overdramatic if you think the Northern Busway is worse visual blight than the 6-odd lane motorway right next to it.
And again, cut the bloody 4 lane road down to 2 lanes. Regardless of whether it’s BRT or LRT; both move more people than equivalent general traffic lanes so you can reduce road size. If light rail isn’t happening and a busway is, you’ve got to work with that.
The northern busway and the motorway together are the blight. Busways are generally the widest, least people friendly of the options. Maybe you should let the designers of the pakuranga busway station to change it down to 2 lanes alongside the busway. See how it goes.
If we’re talking motorway adjacent busways and rail – which have less a placemaking and more a people moving function – then it’s a moot question of width. The rail corridor beside the Southern Motorway is about the same width as the Northern Busway – 10m; and is metal rails on gravel ballast instead of asphalt. If anything the rail lines have even more of a buffer between the motorway and them, including planting.
Urban busways vs LRT is a different question, and I’m not refuting your points but to act like urban BRT can’t be at least optimised in terms of space efficiency and pleasant walkable environs is not productive when 3 new busways are locked in or the only politically viable way of getting rapid transit in under a radically rail-unfriendly government.
There is no justification for Heavy Rail to the North Shore.
The NAL line already exists and there is no industry or space for depot storage on the Shore to justify it.
Not to mention
– Northern busway is too steep and lightly constructed to lay heavy rail on it, and the ease of laying light rail or metro on the corridor seems to be in doubt given the sudden preference for ‘doubling the busway with LRT’ in the latest rapid transit documents.
– A new heavy rail alignment, entirely tunnelled, would be at least as expensive than labour’s tunnelled light rail plan
– a second east-west CRL and a flying junction with the existing network would raise costs and create disruption. mind you, old heavy rail dogmatists probably believe flat junctions are fine and that a junction at the west end of Britomart is perfectly fine
Is Southdown-Avondale to Hillsborough fairly straight forward? I seem to remember an article here that claimed it would be. It wouldn’t be a bad idea, with stops at Owairaka, Mt Roskill and Hillsborough. Fills the isthmus void slightly. Assuming LR is dead of course.
Its fairly straight forward from avondale down to hillsborough. From there it meanders through onehunga and crosses many streets which is harder.
And also doesn’t connect with Onehunga proper – either the bus interchange or train station – so no interconnectivity with any other rapid transit until you get to Otahuhu or Sylvia Park (whichever the proposed 2051 network is sending a crosstown passenger line to)
Its primarily a freight line, per fast track project list, so doesn’t benefit from connecting with Onehunga Station or bus terminal.
I’d see it as best offering services between Puhinui/airport and West Auckland. This would be relatively quick and minimise transfers with luggage.
Connections to other existing services could provide travel to CBD from Owairaka / Mt Roskill / Hillsborough, and take some load of central bus services on Mt Eden Rd / Dom Rd / Sandringham Rd.
South Of Hillsborough it should use SH20 and then head east on Neilson street for a direct cnnection with Onehunga station.
The Onehunga Business Association is proposing this.
Agree with KLK. Crosstown RTN should be treated as an integral and interconnected part of said network, Onehunga is a significant urban centre and transport hub and quite frankly it’s foolish to not create an interchange there.
Believe there was a 2000s study that proposed doing the Avondale-Onehunga passenger tracks seperate to the freight track between Hillsborough and Onehunga – the passenger alignment beside SH20 and the freight alignment single track winding through Royal Oak to Southdown. Would probably necessitate triple tracking Avondale-Hillsborough, and a flying junction(?) though
We could always just build Bus RT down SH20 and leave the rail alignment for whenever they want the freight services to happen.
Bus RTN gives you a bit more flexibility at either end too; extending from Avondale through to the Western Line, and at the southern end to connect with Onehunga station (and on to the airport)
or going one step quicker; doing what was done with the Northwestern Motorway and making the crosstown RTN a BRT-lite sort of affair.
I think there’s a proposal for that in a recent council presentation; New Lynn to Pakuranga via Wesley, onehunga, and Sylvia Park
By the time there are any shovels in the ground for any ASL they may as well wait until, or, there will be, electrified freight operating most of the North Island. In this case the idea of a single tunnel bored line could be done. No messing with residential areas and you could then have it very straight and come out somewhere west of New Lynn. Keeps it away from the busiest commuter rail sections.
So this is a longer term plan and with it the Onehunga heavy rail corridor should be converted to light rail that could extend section by section west and east. ie Avondale, Sylvia Park (bit trickier). Might be best to relocate Penrose HR station south for close stadium access & route LRT along Church St (Stadium Stn), SE Highway with an elevated station at Sylvia and on to Pakuranga.
“or going one step quicker; doing what was done with the Northwestern Motorway and making the crosstown RTN a BRT-lite sort of affair. I think there’s a proposal for that in a recent council presentation; New Lynn to Pakuranga via Wesley, onehunga, and Sylvia Park”
So New Lynn to Onehunga, presumably via SH35 and then SH20? That’s an interesting one. Looks good at first glance. There could also be a RTN-like service from the NW Busway (Waterview) joining the new busway as it exits Waterview tunnel.
Pt Chev to Wesley is a pretty glaring gap in any cross-isthmus RTN, for a true crosstown line that would connect every radial RTN line bar the North Shore lines.
Using the Waterview tunnels though would prevent a western line interchange at Avondale though?
“Using the Waterview tunnels though would prevent a western line interchange at Avondale though?”
Under a New Lynn – Onehunga approach, the intersection with the western line would be the former. The link to the NW busway would be via the tunnels and onto SH20.
But yes, in an ideal world a RTN line across the isthmus and north would bisect both the western line and the NW busway. It just looks difficult, expensive and a long way off….
Ah, a branching crosstown BRT-lite – I see what you mean
limited stop express variations of frequent bus routes – an 18X, a 65X – might be another option, that seems to be considered in the same council presentation that the BRT Lite services are proposed. let’s see if posting the link won’t get this comment taken down
https://infocouncil.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/Open/2023/12/20231207_TICCC_ATT_11405_PLANS.PDF
I think I heard mentioned briefly in one of the Transport and Infrastructure meetings with council of something they working on similar to what I was thinking below, could work in light of the success of the motorway based WX1 (maybe it’s what you talking about and so could of been quite different).
An express bus service utilizing SH 20 from Te Atatu or even MOTAT area all the way to Manukau (off/on Lambie drive to the bus station).
Intermediate stops at Stoddard Rd, Onehunga Bus Interchange, Massey Rd. Issue could be at peak time the congestion around the on/off-ramps but you may be able to introduce some small amount of bus priority lanes and lights.
Checking off-on ramps, they sure are few and far between on SH 20 compared SH 1. Ideally you would be better to interchange with the Mangere Bus station. So instead of Massey Rd and some little turn around nearby (Tidal Rd?) they could be bold and build a bus only on and off ramp at Bader Dr. Looking at that though could only safely do it going south (on & off) due to the SH 20A to Airport turn off too close to Bader Dr.
An alternative to stopping at Onehunga, Massey or Bader is to connect in Mangere Bridge. So off/on at Mahunga/Rimu and go through the town ctr on Coronation Rd and on/off at Walmsley/Coronation Rd. The beauty of that option is you can transfer with either Onehunga, Mangere and beyond via the 36 & 38 buses.
Does it bug anyone else that otahuhu gets more trains stopping there than the CRL stations under most network proposals, or is it just me?
Possible option to build the first part of the avondale southdown line from Westfield/southdown station across to the onehunga line. The eastern line could run into onehunga and separate the lines completely like a metro. Double tracking required of course. Southdown station reinstated as a transfer station between the southern and eastern lines
Southdown station was about a km north of the Westfield Junction, and as far as i can tell the ASL proposal involves connecting it to the Southdown inland port spur not the actual OBL. A station in an as-yet unbuilt flying junction with no walkable catchment other than the rails seems hard to justify unless you’re expecting huge numbers of passenger transfers where a single frequent bus route currently is coping with demand fine IIRC
If we’re talking investing in double-tracking and grade separating the OBL then I’d favour a Swanson-CRL-Onehunga and Pukekohe-CRL-Manukau two line pattern; or any variation with those 4 termini.
The asl crosses the obl at te papapa. Seems quite stright forward to run it into onehunga if double tracked. Simplifies the network by untangling it a bit. In rehard to southdown station. If building a destination, then its not currently useful, but of building the asl then it would have to connect to the southern line to make it more useful so southdown station would be the place.
“There is no justification for Heavy Rail to the North Shore.”
North Shore zone only one not properly linked up to Britomart and heaps of people would want North-South line to Newmarket, Ellerslie & Airport! Light Rail or Metro not a solution for economic issues and was largely ignored by ALR since wasn’t considered when choosing ‘preferred option’ in their assessment. Making the North Shore line to Smales Farm via Takapuna from Britomart should be first phase and would be a start to fixing a ‘Auckland bottleneck’.After that extend all the way to Albany via current Northern Busway while keeping current busway from Smales Farm-Constellation. Northern Busway already reaching capacity levels during peak and bringing in buses isn’t a practical solution anymore.
“there is no industry or space for depot storage on the Shore to justify it.”
Huh? That’s cause North Shore line doesn’t exist yet. Even if there was one, you’d be able to place one at Smales Farm or Akoranga
“keeping current busway from Smales Farm-Constellation”
How you do that is by having evenly levelled tunnel and make new busway bridge at Tristram Avenue and even out the elevation.
okay, sure, shut down the busway for months if not years to demolish it and build the sunnynook-constellation tunnel. great plan. yeah, the north shore is going to love you for that. /s
meanwhile light rail/metro could be laid on the existing busway without major strengthening, or works to change or bypass the gradients.
“North Shore zone only one not properly linked up to Britomart” the Northern Busway has buses every minute and a half on average at rush hour. it moves the same number of people as each of the train lines do with trains every 10 minutes, and gets from albany to the city in half an hour in rush hour.
“heaps of people would want North-South line to Newmarket, Ellerslie & Airport” The 866 runs direct to Newmarket, and it’s a short flat walk to Waitemata station for trains south.
“Northern Busway already reaching capacity levels during peak and bringing in buses isn’t a practical solution anymore.” The busway is modelled presently to not reach capacity until the mid-2030s and trials of longer bi-articulated buses/”trackless trams” with 50% more capacity than a double decker seem to be on the way. That could stretch that capacity further into the 2040s.
“you’d be able to place [a depot] at Smales Farm or Akoranga” and take up valuable space for transit oriented development? don’t make me laugh, you are so out of touch with the modern needs mass transit and urban design needs to fulfill.
“the Northern Busway has buses every minute and a half on average at rush hour.”
You can’t stretch the buses capacity further, not even with articulated buses cause they don’t join together, only with heavy rail you can. If Auckland articulated buses the journey would be 3 or four times slower than current Northern busway speeds.
“The 866 runs direct to Newmarket, and it’s a short flat walk to Waitemata station for trains south”
866 goes into Ponsonby, K Road, Hospital Grafton and terminates in Newmarket and you say that’s direct? Also too the point 866 journey times from Ponsonby to Newmarket is about 20-25 mins long. If Heavy rail existed using the exisiting line Newmarket to Britomart, from there journey underground to Smales farm via Takapuna would get there within 20-25 mins cause its affected by sharing public vehicles or obstacles.
1. Incorrect. Overseas busways achieve maximum frequencies of a bus every 30 seconds, and all North Shore rail studies indicate the Northern busway has headroom for a little more expansion to increase bus frequencies. The choke point is sharing the Harbour Bridge with general traffic. Your assertation that travel times would be 3-4x longer solely by using biarticulated buses (with more doors for quicker boarding than double deckers at stations, by the way) is clearly based entirely on childish mode bias.
2. Mistype. The 866 runs direct to Newmarket via uptown, and the NX1 interchanges with existing rail at Waitemata station. When the CRL opens the NX2 will also interchange with trains at Te Waihorotiu, making transferring to Newmarket bound trains even more convenient. Multiple options, less waiting.
From experience the 866 is mostly held up by merging onto the motorway at Curran St – the fault of cars, excessive traffic volumes and poor road design. 866 delays could be solved by better bus lanes on Ponsonby Rd if AT had the guts to stand up to the car mob, and the changes would benefit other bus routes on Ponsonby Rd too. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater – bus improvements are *necessary* regardless of whether a fully grade separate metro rail or commuter rail system is going in at a later date.
Biarticulated buses aren’t able to maneuvering in traffic particularly in Fanshawe ST- Lower Albert for NX1 and as for NX2 Fanshawe ST- Auckland University, increased turning radius meaning struggle to share road with public vehicles would need to over-take lane and slow down traffic, struggle to turn on tight corners, reduced frequency of service (one larger bus every 10 minutes rather than two regular sized buses coming once every 5 minutes), less flexible for scheduling, routing, and maintenance. It be nightmare for both commuters and for bus operator.
So get space-wasteful single occupancy vehicles off the bus corridors, or at least give buses priority over them. Fanshawe-Customs St and Wellesley St are well placed to be transit malls instead of car sewers.
There is *nothing* limiting articulated buses from running at the same headways as the current 13.5m buses, as long as the fleet size is sufficient. In South America BRT systems run 25-30m long buses as close as 30 seconds apart.
And as for turning radii: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGi9uZp4DK0
You’re doing everything you can to deny the facts, cooking up laughably disprovable nonsense, to prop up your dogmatic insistence that every rapid transit corridor must be heavy rail, damned be service frequency or construction feasibility.
yeah double deckers are slow to load and unload and biarticulated could be as frequent as those for starters.
However two double deckers can load simultaneously in the same space as one bi-artic, so the net difference is less than you think.
I agree entirely with the sentiment (legibility), but unfortunately it is highly unlikely that the proposed operating pattern would be operationally feasible or provide sufficient frequency or capacity on the Eastern line, including at the busway transfer at Panmure.
With only one terminating platform at Otahuhu, and one approach track from Westfield junction to Otahuhu, frequency on the Eastern line would be limited to 15mins at best, and I highly doubt the preferred 7-8min frequency could be achieved, at least without extremely delicate timetabling with zero contingency.
In contrast, the inner southern stations would be massively over-served, and conflicting movements at Newmarket would be very complex.
Far preferable, in my opinion, would be to keep Swanson to Manakau via CRL, and if necessary to terminate Southern Line trains back at Newmarket (after travelling via Grafton, CRL and Panmure) if one really wanted to avoid the double back to Otahuhu for legibility reasons. That would run into similar frequency and capacity constraints as the single terminating platform at Otahuhu (up to every 15mins), except that peak overlay services could terminate at Quay Park without losing much legibility, and the combined frequency back to Newmarket from the CRL would in any event automatically be double that. All conflicting movements at Newmarket would be eliminated.
That would also free up the inner south stations for 2tph Onehunga to Maungawhau, thereby also ensuring the Maungawhau Western line platforms are used on Day 1.
Can anybody identify any issues with this arrangement? I would be extremely grateful if somebody could depict it as an alternative version of the map!
I have another pattern saved I quite like by Matt Beardsworth, not sure where from, X?, but is as follows:
Red Line – Southern & Eastern – 6 tph
– Manukau – CRL via Panmure – Pukekohe
Green Line – Southern & Western – 6 tph
– Swanson – CRL via Parnell – Papakura
Blue Line – Eastern & Western – 6 tph
– Swanson – CRL via Panmure – Manukau
Purple line – Crosstown – 3 tph
– Henderson Newmarket via Grafton – Onehunga/Otahuhu
The loadings look quite good apart from 24 tph through Otahuhu to Puhinui and not sure Manukau can handle 12 tph?
Be good to get Onehunga up to 3 tph to make it simpler.
* after travelling via Grafton, CRL and Parnell (not Panmure)
Honestly the solution to transfers at Otahuhu would be to add another island so that the terminating trains in central track open doors on both sides as do southbound trains allowing for cross platform.
The problem with a loop is that is becomes confusing for passengers on the loop stations, particularly the two new ones,
Which platform do I go to? Is the next train south going via Grafton or Parnell?,
Having to look for which direction, and therefore where I board, the next train is headed everytime you enter the station is going to become the most hated thing about the service,
Passengers will learn very quickly. They’re not stupid.
“City via Grafton”, “City via Parnell” or “City via Panmure” could be the train wording if it fits.
This is a good idea, but there is one issue. If the Onehunga trains only go as far as Penrose, it means that passengers have a long walk from one platform to another. My idea is to have the trains terminate at Newmarket if that’s at all possible.
It’s baffling to me just how much better you guys are at this thing than the supposed experts the taxpayer pays to do it.
As an earlier post said “unfortunately it is highly unlikely that the proposed operating pattern would be operationally feasible or provide sufficient frequency or capacity on the Eastern line”. The professionals have spent years looking at this I’m sure.
Obviously rail maps are a little behind general civilisation here, as we have only had passenger rail returned to us in the last two decades, and are still on the verge of becoming a real city, in terms of finally having a functional underground section in our rail network.
Given the way that trains are currently run, particularly the Onehunga Line, the main issue is where to put the excess trains when not in use.
This is more obvious on our bus network with the NOT IN SERVICE very obvious at most times of day…perhaps someone could work out excess carbon emissions from buses that move without passengers or any intent to move passengers?
The train network will have the efficiency of mains power, which will hopefully mean it is particularly resilient, when it becomes a reality.
The rail network’s weakness will obviously be that it cannot reach the North Shore, East East Auckland, and other particularly car dominated areas of our city, plus it’s non continuation beyond Swanson.
There is no better way to travel than in a train, and probably no worse way to travel than in a car.
However, with the motor normatives still in powerful positions, we, the dedicated users of public transport, will continue to need to dodge the terrible driving that is commonplace in this city, accept that cars can block footpaths, accept that any where remotely accessible for a vehicle, will be accessed by a vehicle, and that escalators and stairs may be the only safety from them, although of course this halts the movement of those of us who rely on wheels to move anywhere at all.
Time may be a factor with the CRL, but since most of us have been waiting our entire lifetimes for a functioning rail system in our city of origin, time will be irrelevant when we are sitting or standing in comfort on the tracks that many of us could once walk on, for lack of trains.
At least my kids know what a train is, I had to travel the world to discover that.
bah humbug
My daughter gets the western line from Glen Eden to new market every school day, your suggestion keeps that trip a one train trip as apposed to new official route which will require a transfer so you’ve got my vote., plus if trains ever ran on the weekends we might go exploring past the city center…
I’m very much looking forward to the single seat journey from Panmure to Kingsland on the existing plan.
Glad this post has come up, we need a good debate on the running pattern before it is set it stone.
I have notes on a couple of good ones that are pretty similar to Nick’s idea back in a post in Jan 2017. They both are pretty similar but they must run Puke-Eastern rather than Puke-inner Southern to make the Onehunga/Otahuhu split work. That can’t be ideal even if there is a flying junction as Westfield, better to stay on the same track.
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Patrick Reynolds says:
January 20, 2017 at 10:33 am
Nope.
10-12 tph on each of the two ‘lines’:
1. Papakura [Puke when electrified] to Manukau via Grafton
2. Swanson to Otahuhu/Onehunga via Parnell
Done. Super legible, super frequent, super efficient. 20/24 tph each way in CRL and Newmarket. Perhaps there’s some short running from Henderson and Papakura if that’s too much service at the extremes, but those are details dependent on development etc
Invest cleverly in Onehunga line to increase its capacity but the spilt with Otahuhu is perhaps only problematic because each word starts with an O!
john.keenan says:
January 20, 2017 at 6:23 pm
Not sure if it is a yes ‘nope’ question.
More do you want 2 lines or 3 plus the North Shore.
If you do run 2 lines then you would definitely need to short run but with the capacity to up freq.
I would change that pattern slightly:
10/12tph Swanson – Manukau via Parnell
10/12tph Pukekohe – Onehunga / Otahuhu (split) via Panmure, Grafton
I think that would be a more separate / legible timetable with more transfer spread South and West.
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Not sure what I like anymore, the AT one shows Eastern line with a train every 5 mins at peak, so that seems decent enough capacity for quite a while.
Ignore my comment on the junction at Westfield. I don’t think it’s valid as anything Otahuhu to east going north would have to cross, it’s just the graphic won’t look like it is.
you can tell that 2-line pattern – which I think was the original proposal for post-CRL operations – was rather contingent on the onehunga branch getting double tracked or extended to the airport. maybe not the most balanced network in terms of demand on the Inner Southern line, but operation and legibility wise it would be a nice simple answer.
Yes I think it would of been nicer.
As an important aside from the main theme, can the powers that be PLEASE consider using YELLOW and another brilliant colour instead of the suggested red and green options for line identification. There are thousands of us with red/green blindness who will be forever grateful. My apologies if subject already covered.
I definitely think the “more useful” proposal works best but also while keeping the Onehunga line crosstown. Many people take the western line into Grafton from my experience
IIRC about 20-25% of Western Line demand from all stations is to Grafton, Newmarket, and inner southern line stations. Which seems like a lot to expect Karanga-a-hape station to handle for transfers, even with a pretty straightforward layout for cross platform interchanges.