Several major industries in New Zealand may be in their death throes.

First came the news last week that Tiwai Point was looking to renegotiate their electricity price contract with Meridian, apparently because of plunging global aluminium prices. Then we heard that Norske Skog is looking to halve the production of pulp and paper at their Kawerau Mill, again because of plunging prices for newsprint.

Now, these two industrial consumers on their own account for approximately 18% of New Zealand’s annual electricity consumption. So it’s reasonable to wonder what would happen to the price of electricity if they were to close down? Obviously it would drop, but by how much?

To get a handle on how changes in the demand for electricity might affect its price the first port-of-call are so-called “offer curves”, such as the one shown below. This offer curve has price on the vertical axis and supply on the horizontal axis. The blue line is the set of offers submitted by the electricity generators that you know and love (Meridian etc) to supply electricity to the market operator.

The offers are basically the price the generators need to be paid to make generating electricity worth their while (i.e. the financial equivalent of what you have to pay to get me out of bed in the morning). Of course the individual generators have a number of plants in their portfolios that all have different cost structures, hence each generator will make a multitude of offers. The offers are then sorted from highest to lowest, which creates the upwards sloping step-wise blue line shown below, which is labelled “aggregate offer curve.”

The market operator then accepts as many individual offers as is needed to meet the total demand for electricity in that period (which is predicted by Transpower based on historical demands and trends, plus some allowances for weather conditions). The total demand for this particular period is indicated by the vertical blue line.

The point where the demand (vertical blue line) hits the aggregate offer curve (step-wise blue line) determines the clearing price for this period, which in this case is found to be $120/MWh (or 12c/kwh), as illustrated by the horizontal grey line. If you’re an offer sitting to the left of the demand line then you will be accepted; if you are an offer sitting to the right then you get nothing.

Now, it’s worth dwelling on this offer curve for a bit – and it’s not simply because  I like graphs. The main thing to notice is the J-shape of the offer curve, i.e. it starts off at zero and stays there until the quantity demanded reaches just over 3000MW, at which point the offer curve starts to step upwards. As the quantity demanded increases further then the offer curve increases at an increasing rate. Basically, the offer curve (and hence the price) will accelerate as demand grows, and vice versa if it falls.

At this point you might be sitting their and thinking “but why would anyone offer to generate electricity for $0?” The answer is that no-one expects to receive $0, but the reason they are made is because they are associated with “must run” generation – e.g. most geothermal, wind, and run-of-river hydro (e.g. Waikato river system). Because these plants cannot just be “switched off” the generators will offer them in at close to zero in order to make sure they make the cut – but they do so in full awareness that the actual demand is likely to push the clearing price further to the right and thus beyond the territory where zero prices would hold. To the right of this must-run generation in the offer curve sits more “flexible” generation options, such as lake hydro and thermal (gas and coal – although the latter is slow to start up). It is this generation that will in most cases that will set the clearing price.

But we digress slightly. Our original question was: How might the price of electricity change in response to changes in demand? Let’s consider two scenarios to provide us with some insight into this question:

  • Scenario A – demand is 15% higher at 5,060MW. In this situation scenario the clearing price would shift to about $250/MWh – or approximately twice the actual price.
  • Scenario B – demand is 15% lower at 3,740MW. In this scenario the clearing price would shift to about $60/MWh – or approximately half the actual price.

These scenarios illustrate that a demand shock in the order of 15% can cause much larger changes in the wholesale electricity price, i.e. the shape of the offer curve (or structure of the market for electricity generation) means that relatively small changes in demand can have relatively large impacts on price.

It’s important here to note that the offer curve is based on the short run marginal cost, which will be more volatile than the long run effects. This is because permanently suppressed  prices would motivate the generators to mothball costly power stations, which would in turn push the price of electricity back up to the point where it was financially sustainable (in the sense that it was enough to cover the long run costs of capital). So the long run effects of a large change in demand will be smaller than the short run effects.

But nonetheless significant. And the impact of Tiwai and Kawerau would be felt most immediately through a fairly large fall in NZ’s electricity price. Residential electricity bills would drop, so consumer expenditure would increase. And any surviving electricity-intensive industries would suddenly become that much more viable – because they would all be paying much less for their electricity. BlueScope Steel at Glenbrook, for example, springs to mind as a company that could do quite well out of Tiwai and Kawerau shutting down.

A wider implication of a large drop in the price of electricity, however, (and the one that is probably more interesting to the readers of this blog) is that electric  transport would become significantly less expensive. That means that Wellington’s trains and trolley buses, and Auckland’s soon-to-arrive EMUs for that matter, will be relatively less costly to operate. Of course electricity is only one input into operating costs, so we would expect the reduction in operating costs to be less than the reduction in the price of electricity.

But the big impact, I think, is likely to be on the viability of electric buses: A significant drop in the price of electricity in New Zealand would probably mean that these would become viable on a relatively large scale. Fully electric buses are already operating on in cities overseas, such as the Artic Whisper that s operating in Umeå, Sweden (hej på dej!) shown below. But these places have much higher electricity prices, hence electric buses will normally require subsidies.

The Artic Whisper is particularly interesting because it runs standard-size full electric buses, which recharge quickly at the end of each trip via the overhead system shown below. It also has a back-up diesel engine that can be relied on if the electric battery runs down (quite useful in the Swedish winter), so it is quite a resilient technology.

Other cities such as Turin also has some cute little battery electric buses, although these have smaller capacity so their application is more limited. But my point is that there’s a range of reasonably established electric bus technologies out there and that they might come here if the price of electricity dropped to a significant degree.

All this leads me to think that there may actually be some positives in a future where Tiwai Point and Kawerau shut down. The most obvious is that electricity would be likely to be significantly less expensive. In the medium to long run that has to result in additional jobs being created somewhere else, such as Glenbrook (altough the electricity generators would probably have to shed staff).

But the potentially most exciting impact of a large and sustained drop in electricity prices would be on the public transport sector, where fully electric buses might become viable. All our cities could then breathe a sigh of relief from cleaner, quieter streets – and in the long run electric technology could even change people’s perceptions towards buses (which I still think for many NZers are coloured by too many bumpy school bus trips in cluttery old diesel beasts driven by dragons).

That’s not to suggest that I hope these two major industries do shut down, because this would no doubt devastate the economies of their local communities. But I do think it’s important to think through what the potential implications might be – especially before people start suggesting that the general taxpayer “support” these industries in some way (even through lower electricity prices).

My economic instincts tell me that rather than knee-jerk support for what are foreign-owned and potentially dying industries, New Zealand would be better off responding to such a shut-down by directly supporting the affected communities/households, i.e. help them adapt to change – rather than fight it. And because the electricity resources currently being consumed by these industries will result in lower prices overall, then everyone else will have a bit more money in our pocket to help out those people who are adversely affected.

Just some of my thoughts; keen to hear what others think.

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68 comments

  1. Surely the costs of the electricity system are mostly fixed? Apart from a bit of gas and coal, the other inputs (salaries; capital costs of dams, thermal stations; windmils, and the grid; water; and wind) aren’t going to vary much at all if the system loses a couple of its biggest customers. So I would assume that in the short term that would mean either a large drop in SOE and Contact profits, or that electricity prices would have to increase to cover the shortfall, or a mix of both. There would be savings in the medium term, since we’d be able to cancel or delay capital spending on expensive sources of new electricity like new wind farms. But I don’t see how electricity prices will be able to drop significantly in the short term unless there is some immediate cost saving available and (apart from gas and coal), I don’t see where the cost saving is going to come. It isn’t as if we’re going to mothball a hydro dam.

    That’d be a perfect storm of economic pain… Increased electricity prices. Reduced electricity profits. Reduced SOE valuations. Reduced capital spending in the electricity sector leading to suppliers and construction companies closing up shop. Increased unemployment in a couple of regional towns which aren’t likely to attract replacement industry. Lower exports leading to changes in the exchange rate. I can’t see any good side to this.

    1. Obi, if you’re talking about the costs over the whole system then yes – they are mostly fixed. That’s why the short tun marginal cost for most of the offer curve is close to zero – because it does not matter whether this plant runs or not.

      What this post tries to point, however, is that the average price does not matter at all. It is the price at the margin that sets the clearing price. And at the margin NZ’s electricity demands are met by thermal plant, especially gas. So if demand were to reduce then the this type of plant will decline, and the clearing price changes a lot. While we cannot mothball a hydro dam, we can just spill water.

    1. Possibly – although it may not affect residential power prices for and a while yet. Industrial users exposed to the wholesale spot price would be the first to benefit.

      1. Of course Rio Tinto are really just playing the silly asset sales programme for all it’s worth. They have quite rightly spotted a lever by which they can twist the government in order to negotiate an even crazier low price for our electrons.

        In terms of shut down on the one hand it is a very old smelter on the other it is producing high value prod with renewables… international carbon tax or price make it even more viable…?

        Kawarua is more an exchange rate story I reckon? Our over priced dollar hurting industry, affecting int. competitiveness…. but that also could be an attempt to get a deal out of the gov too. Both companies recognising how desperate this gov is to sell these assets and how easily they were played by International corporations over the Hobbit…

        1. To be fair Patrick, this government is the second government to bend over for Warner Bros/ New Line…

    2. ChansyAndDavid, I think there should be more like you. In South Australia and Queensland where domestic PV systems have been installed in large numbers over the last few years the daytime demand for generation has fallen quite a bit, but the wholesale prices of electricity have fallen even further, impacting the profits of the generators, but the price has fallen for consumers too. See the graphs in this morning’s article on the Conversation: http://theconversation.edu.au/whos-afraid-of-solar-pv-8987. Very interesting.

      I rank cheaper power to consumers above reduced electricity profits and reduced SOE valuations. So I’m all for rolling out PV similarly to as they have done in Adelaide.

      And as for the diesel particulate spewing buses getting them out of the urban environment and replacing them with EVs means cleaner air for all. Kingston, Ontario has gone for the Iron-Phosphate battery technology. See http://pollutionfreecities.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/pollution-free-electric-buses.html

      But the big gain from cheaper electricity is we can go to heatpumps and get rid of our health-crippling dependency on burning wood and the resulting horrible toxic poisons.

      I think if Tiwai Point shuts down then they’ll need another DC inter-island connection. The market for the power is on the North Island, so Southland is kind of the worst spot in the country to have all that excess power. But better to build that, to not privatise the SOEs and to run the system minimising both the cost of electricity to the public and urban air pollution which would reduce health costs as well, than to have the 1,100 annual cases of premature mortality from particulate pollution.

      1. We put a hot water heatpump (econergy) and a floor console (fujitsu) heat pump in last July and have dropped our power consumption by 1/3 (roughly $130) per month over winter. I think all up it cost us roughly $5,500. LED’s and PV’s will be next.

        1. Solar hot water is a no brainer. PV [grid tied] does stack up but only compared to cash in the bank, in other words not if you have a mortgage or are borrowing to install it. Insulation upgrade the best of all. And sorry to Matthew who is clearly irrationally obsessive about this… I just love my wood burner… dry dry heat, great atmos and carbon neutral…. we have no other space heating at all, but a modern well insulated building.

        2. I looked at solar hot water (panels on the roof) but as it is an old house we would have needed engineering design work and building consent along with plumbing and electrical. It would have cost somewhere in the region of $7k by itself. For the hot water heat pump you need – nothing. Just an electrical cert (done by the installers). Very similar efficiency to solar (almost identical in fact). Modern wood burners, using dry suitable wood are actually very clean. The problem is when people use damp wood or other non-suitable combustible materials (I was visiting a house where they put all the pizza boxes in the fire. I pointed out the glues used to make said boxes. No one cared)

        3. And when I can afford it, I will put a grid tied PV system in just because I think it’s the right thing to do. Economics be damned. I would expect it to have a positive effect on any potential sale price though (“Do you want to know how much the monthly power bill is?” “Yes” “Just the line charge” How cool would that be?)

        4. Bryce, is that 7k for the system, or just the engineering, consent etc? Unless you have a unusual roof, as opposed to old, it should not be necessary to do engineering – have you looked at the Approved Solution? Consent is now $250 or so in AKL.

          If you were told that it would cost this much by an installer I would do some homework yourself. I’m about to install a good system for around $7k all in (admittedly at architects special supply rate) for a top European system suitable for 4 people. Done lots of digging around to get the best setup for minimal price, after being quoted around $12k+ by the new Auckland Council solar scheme (poor attitude, overselling and over-engineered proposal)

        5. No. No. No. You believe in dumb myths. If I have a bee in my bonnet it is because ignorance on the issue is so widespread and it has had a huge negative effect on my life. i.e I’m completely frustrated and have been for 12 years. It’s a huge social justice issue and it is being completely ignored. Gram per gram woodsmoke is more poisonous than cigarette smoke.

          Woodburners are NOT carbon neutral. They emit large amounts of methane for starters. There’s also the deficit of the wood that you are growing for all the wood you’ve burnt. Plus the diesel to deliver it and the 2-stroke to cut it up. I actually think it is pretty irrelevant what the CO2 levels are, and what the methane levels are. What are the levels of all the toxic chemicals is more important. See http://cleanairnz.com/2012/07/07/whats-in-woodsmoke/ All that pollution is right where people actually live and breathe.

          Modern woodburners are actually not “very clean”. In the real world they burn up to 1000%, even 1700%, dirtier than in laboratory conditions (look at e-can tests). Have those supposedly “clean” woodburners they’ve had to install in Central Otago helped Alexandra or Arrowtown? Nope, not one bit, because it is an absolute lie that they meet the standards that they pretend to meet. All mitigation efforts currently in use in NZ or Australia (except for a complete ban in some NSW councils) are failing. They have not been demonstrated to work anywhere. All the mitigation efforts are greenwash and/or are just wasting time when the right response is prohibition.

          In 2007 the Australian Standards Committee majority recommended the halving of the 50 microgram per cubic metre standard in use in Australia and New Zealand, because they recognise it as set too high as to be injurious to health. It was vetoed by the manufacturers’ association (the AHHA) who in my opinion had a huge conflict of interest even being part of the process. Most New Zealand towns don’t meet the lax standards, and wouldn’t meet tightened standards at all. HAPINZ 2012 estimates (probably underestimates because of limited monitoring, and it is really bad in some country towns) 1,100 annual deaths.

          And pity that some poor bastards just can’t live anywhere near them. I for one could not live in town or in a suburb anywhere in New Zealand. Your “great atmos” is other people’s absolute nightmare. I could not live in any Auckland suburb. It would be a traumatic experience. So yes this means I drive in to town to work where during the day pollution levels aren’t as high as in the evening. I’d rather a lifestyle of cycling or walking to work, but in NZ that is just not possible. Nor is any evening sports.

          I have had to move away from polluted neighbourhoods 3 times. Twice because of domestic woodburners, and once because of rural burnoffs. They are the absolutely worst way to heat your home as they put huge external costs onto everyone else. They ruin peoples lives. There are studies showing links with particulate pollution to depression, suicide, reduced IQ (5 points according to a Polish study), lung disease including mesothelioma, cardiovascular disease, asthma, stroke. Chronic low level exposure also cuts an average 2 years off your life.

          There are thousands of people like me. NZ asthma rates are 6 times world average. Of course it’s nothing to do with the toxic exhaust from woodburners.

          You all get this for diesel particulates and cigarette smoke, yet why do you pretend it doesn’t happen with woodsmoke?

        6. Hi Tim. I was told by Waitakere council 3 years ago that consent and drawings would be required. The $7k was an estimate.

        7. The solar price was good gear through a friend in the alt energy industry and we already had a 300l solar ready cylinder installed when we renovated (and lots of green stuff). The hot water heat pump, tapped into the cylinder, was $3,500 after the ($575?) govt grant. Very good value for money.

        8. Depends on lifespan. HWHP typically 15 years at best, solar HW can be 25+ for a good system. There are lots of good research and discussion docs on the web (happy to send you a list) but good heads up of issues here:

          http://www.ecodesignadvisor.org.nz/assets/A-Pollard-2011EDA.pdf

          Consent is needed for both solar and HWHP but AC recently moved to subsidise the cost, both now $220:

          http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/SiteCollectionDocuments/buildingpropertyconsents/FeesBuildingResourceLim.pdf

          I would suggest that as you already have a solar tank you would be wise to make te best of that. I’m all for heat pumps- but the ground source type, not the air source type. They are expensive in NZ now, but I hope that changes- air source types are not very robust in my opinion, consumer items rather flimsily made. If you do insist on an air source HWHP then check Consumer’s recommendations:

          http://www.consumer.org.nz/reports/heat-pump-water-heaters/products/testtable

          HTH!

        9. PS – I reckoned the solar system at $7.5k, bought with a revolving mortgage at current rates (yes, unlikely to last forever) paid back over 10 years was equivalent to my hot water cost each month. Once paid off, the solar has another 15+ years in it, whereas you are looking at setting aside cash or starting another loan within 5 years if you go with HWHP. HTH again – your numbers will vary dependent on system and water use…

  2. another issue not covered in NZTA’s figurings is externalities, switching diesel buses to trolleys (proven technology) or induction powered flywheel buses (other end of the technology gradient) would reduce particulate emissions in cities and thus respiratry illnesses with their associated costs

    one issue to overcome would be that double overhead wires are eyesores, while the single overhead wires of light rail denote amenity (irony emoticon needed here 😉 )

    as an aside, I don’t know if a diesel/trolley analysis has been done for Wellington’s bus and pedestrian issues, but I suspect some audible warning might improve the situation

  3. All this leads me to think that there may actually be some positives in a future where Tiwai Point and Kawerau shut down. The most obvious is that electricity would be likely to be significantly less expensive. In the medium to long run that has to result in additional jobs being created somewhere else, such as Glenbrook (altough the electricity generators would probably have to shed staff).

    Answer – On Jobs -not necessarily, Tiwai is supplied by a direct line from Manapouri, so unless your new industry is going to be based in Bluff or somewhere that can access that line, then more likely permanent loss of employment.
    On electricity prices – again not necessarily – see point about direct line to Tiwai. There is further transmission issue moving electricity from Manapouri to wider Sth Island let alone to the Nth Island. You need to factor into your calcs, Capital costs of changes to transmission, loss of employment/taxes/worker relocation costs/GDP loss etc. Net impact will be significant.

    So prices would remain at the marginal cost of generation able to “access the market demanding it”. Which means if you want electricity to supply urban commuter services then you need to build it. So only net losses to the economy, society and environment on all fronts.

    1. Originally there was one direct line Manapouri-Twizel and one line via Invercargill (connecting to the rest of the grid). They reconfigured the lines in the early 80’s by bussing both lines north of Invercargill (North Makarewa), and building a new line to Three Mile Hill in Dunedin. so Manapouri could supply Aramoana smelter as well as Tiwai Point…

    2. Some responses”
      1. Yes there would be some additional transmission costs, but if transmission constraints became binding then Transpower would probably look at upgrading lines. That’s their job …
      2. The price would definitely drop somewhere, so not quite sure what you’re suggesting here. It may not be by as much as if the juice was fed into Huntly, but even accounting for transmission losses it’s still going to make it’s way north in some form
      3. Yes you need to factor in a lot of things to do a thorough analysis. I do not purport to do that here; but simply point out that there are some potential benefits.

      The big benefit is that what Tiwai are prepared to pay for electricity (~5c/kwh) seems significantly less than what everyone else in NZ is prepared to oay (12c/kwh wholesale spot price). I think Tiwai would have to create a lot jobs in order to make back that difference.

  4. The other major thing to think about is transmission – if you shut down Tiwai Point and Tasman Mill, then you would need to spend big bucks on upgrading the transmission system to get the electricity out of the power stations and to the places it is needed. You would need a new transmission line from Invercargill to the Waitaki Valley (Benmore or Twizel) at least for Manapouri, and even then the inter-island link (from Benmore Dam to Haywards in Lower Hutt) can only take 1200MW of power northwards after its current upgrades (1400MW is possible with a fourth Cook Strait cable, but after that, you would need to invest in a new link).

    1. Manapouri is connected to the grid according to it’s Wiki page, and the transmission lines are currently being upgraded….

      Manapouri is connected to the rest of the National Grid via two double-circuit 220 kV transmission lines. One line connects Manapouri to Tiwai Point via North Makarewa substation, north of Invercargill, while the other line connects Manapouri to Invercargill substation, with one circuit also connecting to North Makarewa substation. Another double-circuit 220 kV line connects Invercargill to Tiwai Point.[6]

      1. …But there is limited capacity in the exisitng lines north of Invercargill, even with upgrades. A new transmission line will be needed probably in 30 years time anyway.

    2. Yip, Manapouri and its approximately 10% of NZ’s generation is grid stranded, if Tiwai shut up shop, I could see Meridian mothballing a fair chunk of the station and only run one or two turbines for load in the lower south Island…….

      It would not have a major impact on major north Isand users like Glenbrook, there is simply no way to get the power north ( its 800MW at full load, so a new HVDC link ( you would not be able to add the new load to the existing pylons,) would be over a billion dollars, and probably take 10 years, Without a new link you would essentially have a two separate Nth and Sth Island power markets as you would be unable to balance supply and demand.

      Noske-skog is a different ball of wax, yes there is currently grid issues around the geothermal generating plants, but the load is fairly close to Auckland (cf most of NZ’s generation), so it may depress prices in the Nth Island, but probably not by as much as you think….

      It would more than likely just push a couple of old coal/gas units at Huntly off the grid early (which are planned to be retired in the next 5-10 years anyway)

      Sorry but Tiwai closing is not going to make power cheaper for everyone the next morning…..

      1. The HVDC Inter-Island is 700MW at the moment while they commission the new Pole 3 converters (there are two “poles” – 2 (-350kV, 700MW) and 3 (+350kV, 735MW) ), which will bring it up to 1200MW capacity but only 1000MW operation – new voltage support at Haywards will allow it to operate at full capacity from 2014. The overhead lines are rated up to 1400MW, and three submarine cables are 500MW each, requiring four (two per pole) to operate at the full line rating.

        Kawerau – they’re installing a new 220/110kV transformer to help get the electricity in and out (the major lines are 220kV but the mill and all the generation are connected at 110kV), but they may need to build a new line or two to get all the generation out of Kawerau and out of the Bay of Plenty.

        1. Still too much loss from way way down south, and question whether the network in the area has the capacity. The HVDC link is from Benmore.

  5. This highlights what is so exasperating about the RoNS… the future is clearly electric and so much so for any country that can generate any quantity of the stuff renewably let alone already 80% and easily 100% with some effort like NZ. To instead be aggressively investing in last century’s system now is just pig headed and daft [oil1998 USD10: now USD100+].

    And when it comes to transport the proven and most efficient electric systems are tethered. No dragging around of heavy and chemically tricky batteries [let alone back up diesel engines].

    If even half the RoNS were delayed and that money invested instead in electric urban and electric rail freight it would be transformative for our balance of payments [12 billion last year on oil ], for environmental and health, injury, and death externalities…. not to mention employment; all those Kiwi rail staff being fired.

    Boy that road lobby has this government by the nads…. or perhaps this government is the road lobby…?

    Of course it’s not just NZ read about India and more here: http://gregor.us/policy/the-demise-of-the-car/

      1. Ye canne change the laws of physics, – you can be as determined as you like, but the damn electrons will just not go down the wire, ( they complain it is already full)

  6. Price would not necessarily drop – As generation is not necessarily able to move (Manapouri to Auckland) or be shipped to Auckland the probable response would be to shut generation down. Manapouri exists because of Tiwai, the price is only relevant for Tiwai-Manapouri, not Manapouri and rest of NZ. Also Tiwai does provide a lot of well paid high skill jobs and significant exports.

    1. Yes it would I’m afraid. It may not drop by as much as you would think given the SRMC offer curve, but it would drop on average because those transmission constraints you mention are not binding 100% of the time.

  7. So we can drop 12 billion on new duplicate roads but not 1 billion on upgraded transmission?

    If Tiwai was to be closed, which I doubt, I think that would concentrate the mind wonderfully don’t you?

    More likely the great privatiser would find a way to justify suddenly all of us owning an old smelter and subsidising that too.

  8. From what I understand is that our transmission network is grossly overcapacity and ageing, especially between islands, that we probably wont see much change in the power prices. BTW many of the woodmills power themselves. Some even sold electricity when the prices were high.

    1. I think that’s a somewhat simplistic interpretation of the transmission network. Yes it could do with more investment to relieve constraints, but these are rarely permanently binding so have little economic impacts. In terms of maintenance, I think it’s probably as well maintained as most systems it’s size, especially given the size of our population. BTW Kawerau does not power itself; it consumes ~2.9% of NZ’s annual electricity generation.

  9. Patrick – see greenwelly’s point above and then reflect on why spend $1b on transmission upgrade when saw $100m or $200m might get you new generation supplying you the electricity in Auckland/Wellington/Christchurch. Then reflect on jobs lost unneccesarily etc.

    The wisdom or otherwise of roads are a different debate, lets not conflate into the same debate.

    1. Not so fast… 100 million spent on what to deliver how much? 850MW? Sure run all cost benefit analyses. And the two issues have been clearly related in the blog post above: Transport issues are energy issues. Like I say we spend 12 billion PER ANNUM on imported fuel, the vast bulk of which goes on transport.

      Anyway I’m not saying Auckland needs or could use Manapouri’s output although it would be nice to get off the FF generating kick a little earlier… But it is an interesting turn of events both for the asset sale boondoggle and discussions about powering and therefore investing in our future transport needs.

    2. Manapouri is almost the perfect renewable power generator.
      To good to waste on Aluminium.

      Sure you can build a gas powered fossil fuel plant closer to Auckland (where the demand is), but you won’t get away from the fact you can’t get the same cents per kwh from any new plant over the generation costs Manapouri has which must be one of the lowest cost power plants in the country – which is obvious since Meridian can sell its power to Tiwai for 3 tenths of bugger all – otherwise Rio would have got up and walked away from Tiwai years ago if not.

      It costs money to bring power north but thats not a new problem and any grid upgrade is going to be needed at some stage – and all the easy and cheap power plants have been built in both islands.

      Don’t know where the $100-200 m for equivalent power capacity to replace Manapouri comes from either – I’m pretty sure Mighty River Power paid far more than that to get far less power than that from the new Geo plant at Wairakei.they opened a few years back.

      Kawerau Geothermal cost $300m opened in 2008 and generates 100MW of power – so we’d need 8 of those to replace Manapouri at what $2,4m?
      Enough spend to get a motorway from Puhoi to Wellsford instead.

        1. NZ has huge renewable energy potential in wind, tidal, wave, and potentially even solar.

  10. Stu- great post, you may have misspelt “tram” as “electric bus” but that my only quibble.

    Brazil may have gone to sugar cane powered cars to rid themselves of the oil addiction, could we use electricity to do the same here?

    CRL, electric cars, and trams- everywhere!

    1. “Stu- great post, you may have misspelt “tram” as “electric bus” but that my only quibble.”

      Yes because it is all about the aesthetic isn’t it. It is these sorts of ideas that hold pt back

      1. Get him Swan! But in Geoff’s defence I think he was just being cheeky, which I myself am partial to.

        I agree with you though – it’s a shame that people focus so much on technology. Auckland’s PT problem do not stem from us not having trams, they stem from a complex illegible network. Get the latter sorted (no matter what the technology) has to be the priority, rather than tipping hundreds of millions into providing a tram on one specific corridor.

        If we could get people’s focus off technology and onto improving services, including frequencies on our heavy rail network, then we’d make a lot more progress/

    1. A bus is not a car and a battery can be replaced! Note that diesel engines need to be rebuilt every ten years or so too …

        1. No not really. I’m researching that now – reticulation is extremely expensive and inflexible.

  11. Mayor Tim Shadbolt wants to see the smelter continue running because of the local jobs thing, so there’s the possibility he could join the opposition to asset sales if it means a privatised Meridian Energy hiking up power prices.

    1. Don’t worry, if National gets in again, by the end of the next term, they will all be sold off, and the market will give you a fair creaming.

      1. I’m calling it now: National won’t get it again. This SOE sell-off will run right up until the next election and sink them like a stone.

        1. Still 6 years of doing nothing and making no progress across the board in all policy areas seems like an awful lot of time to waste.

        2. As long as Labour keep their eye on the ball – the next election. While I, personally, am in favour of gay marriage, it is items like this that divide voters, as per the ‘anti-smacking’ legislation. Great in principle but I am sure there were better, less divisive ways to achieve the same goals. This kind of disharmony will allow National to stay in. The Greens actually look to be the most cohesive left leaning party at the moment – go figure.

        3. Getting slightly off-topic, but I agree.

          However, I am not surprised that the Greens are more cohesive; as a group of people they have more unifying values/principles than Labour. From where I am sitting the latter seem to have an identity crisis. Are they socially democratic (in the Scandinavian sense), radical socialists, or capitalists with a heart? Labour seems to get torn to pieces by interest groups, which in turn means that it does not have the balls to front various issues (like pointing out that Transmission Gully is not a priority).

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